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Miniature Gaming! => WHFB Army Lists => Topic started by: hairypig on April 07, 2009, 07:32:53 PM



Title: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: hairypig on April 07, 2009, 07:32:53 PM
Hi,

I play Skaven and have been wondering lately whether its worth getting a unit of stormvermin? I  usually run 3 units of 30 clan rats as well as multiple units of plague monks with clan Skyre back-up.

These chaps are a few points more than the regular clan rats but have 1+ws, halberds and heavy armour. Being a Skaven unit these 'elite' warriors do not even come close to the average armies core choices however I think they may stick around a bit longer, especially with the army BSB in the unit.

How have other people got on with them? Are they worth the extra point sink?Would a unit infact have a longer life expectancy

(I realise Skaven are due to be re-released soon and no doubt there will be Stormies in plastic with new rules but I may try them out before then.)

Cheers,

Ant  :D

PS: See you all on the morrow at the Gentlemans Club unless the baby has arrived before then


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Ego Ninja on April 07, 2009, 07:43:20 PM
I think its going to come down to personal choice and how you intend to use them in your army, I dont pretend to be an expert on the ratmen, but surely more is better? Use the extra points you would be spending on Stormvermin and a bsb to bulk out on more clanrats and/or jezzails.

Fluff wise it makes sense to have them there, and I could see possible use's if supporting a screaming bell.

In my opinion (and from watching how you play your skaven) your better off bulking up on clanrats, those massive ranked up units really can take masses of damage! and catch fleeing chaos knights  ;)

Matt  8)


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: admin on April 07, 2009, 08:43:35 PM
Id like to comment, but i have no idea what the storm vermin bring to the table. Have you got a stat line you can put up, and any special ruls they may have as storm vermin and skaven? also whats their points cost compared to a clanrat?

cheers


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: hairypig on April 07, 2009, 09:41:32 PM
Sorry should have listed their stats and addl info  :-[. Here goes:-

                        M  WS   BS   S    T    W     I     A   Ld      Points

Clanrat               5    3    3     3    3    1      4    1    5             5, Unit 20+

Stormvermin        5    4    3     3    3    1      5    1    5              8. Unit 10+


The Stormvermin have no special rules particular to their unit but Skaven as a whole have:-

"Strength in numbers" (Rank bonus is added to Leadership for all LD tests)
"He Who Runs Away" (+1 inch flee distance)
"Life is cheap"  (Can target ranged attacks at units engaged with friendly uints)
"Lead from back" (Characters can be placed in the back rank)

The Stormvermin have halberds and heavy armour and can be upgraded to have shields. They can also be given either a Ratling Gun or Warp Fire Thrower attatchment as well as a magical banner. And as Mr Beer said are mainly used as the escort for the Grey Seer's Screaming Bell.

Clanrats start with hand weapon, sheild and light armour and can be upgraded to spears for +1pt per model. They can also be given weapon teams but have no option to upgrade to a magical standard. Clanrats have the "Mainstay Unit" rule which means numbers of any unit in the Clanrat army cannot exceed the number of Clanrat units held.

As GW are rumoured to be bringing out plastic SV's I doubt I will buy the metals in the meantime as that would be crazy! I may try out the idea by just using my clanrat models with more armour  :-\

Anyone with experience of using SV's or playing against them would be great.

Ant  ;D


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Darak Vardek on April 07, 2009, 10:31:33 PM
their the next fantasy race so wait till then


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Ego Ninja on April 08, 2009, 08:54:08 AM
There's no harm in trying them, see if they fit your playing style etc, but unless you change the majority of your current list i dont see them doing anything that clanrats couldnt.

The one thing that skaven really have going for them is numbers, those big ranked units can take ALOT of damage and then still win combat through pure strength in numbers, and i know that thats what i worry about more than anything when i fight them, so maybe working out a way of fitting more normal rats into the list would be more helpful?

Matt  8)


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: admin on April 09, 2009, 05:10:10 PM
Well i spose you have to consider is the extra points cost worth it and from my quick deductions the 3 pt difference gives you:

  • +1 WS compared to the clanrats
  • +1 Int compared to the clanrats
  • -1 save in combat compared to the clanrats

The fact they can have a magic standard could be helpful, although saying that i know a large number of the magic standards in the old Army Books were complete sewage (i know the orcs and gobbos were?)

Does upgrading the SV with a shield cost anything, I assume it does? id guess 1pt if so that makes them 9pts each and obv gives them a 3+ sv in combat and 4+ from shooting, I think if you were going to take the SV you'd have to give them shields.

So there you have it double the points for half the models with an extra Int for the second round of combat - fairly useful. Plus an extra WS which isnt really going to make musch difference cos your still gonna need 4s against most things. The save could make a difference but with half the models in the squad your gonna probabily feel the pinch on combat res.

So all in all to me it doesnt seem worth it!


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: hairypig on April 09, 2009, 05:21:32 PM
Cheers Vin for that comprehensive reply. It does seem that way when you break it down and analyse it like that. They may have there place in an objective game I suppose or for fluff reasons.

I think the decider will be any new rules for the unit. Like a slightly weaker version of the Stubborn rule or the option for great weapons etc.

I may try them out in the mean time but will hope for some stats/rules improvments with the new edition.

Ant  :D


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: admin on April 09, 2009, 07:32:52 PM
Yeh i think for that price they would need to have a speial rule attached to them or atleast some more options


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Grimlock on April 10, 2009, 06:41:56 PM
storm vermin are really gd if u use them right as there a hard to kill unit an can take support weapons like ratling and warpfire throwers


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Ego Ninja on April 10, 2009, 06:53:41 PM
I wouldnt say they are hard to kill, just harder than clanrats  ;) :P


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Grimlock on April 10, 2009, 06:58:19 PM
heavy armour + shield and close combat weapon so 4+ normal and 3+ in combat decent save for a regiment


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Ego Ninja on April 10, 2009, 07:06:30 PM
For the points you going to have to spend to get that tho surely its worth getting a bigger unit of clanrats (or increasing the size of the rest of the units)


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: hairypig on April 10, 2009, 11:28:33 PM
In combat I think Id usually use the halbards for that +1 strength as im going to have to generate some kills because Il have less ranks etc because of the higher price. That said I think the heavy armour and sheild combo could still work out.

I still think a chewey cenre to my battle line would be handy. As it just takes the wind to blow in the other direction for the furry buggers to scarper.

Cheers for all these replies. Keep any more advice coming.

Ant  ;D


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Grimlock on April 11, 2009, 02:18:56 PM
in my long years of playing i have seen extremely few ppl NOT take stormvermin as all skaven players (self included) like them for there hitting power.


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Ego Ninja on April 11, 2009, 04:32:27 PM
I can see your point to a certain extent, in that they would hit harder than the rest of the Skaven army, but that said they would still struggle against alot of the other race's basic infantry unless large amounts of them are taken (there are of course a few exceptions to this)  im not denying they may well have there use's, I just feel that a Skaven list could be far more competitive without them, and I certainly wouldnt say that they are essential for a Skaven victory.


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Grimlock on April 13, 2009, 12:46:53 AM
thing is there a nice spear head as there generaly ignored for better targets suchs as jazzels and warplightning cannons


Title: Re: Stormvermin, worth it or no?
Post by: Ego Ninja on April 13, 2009, 06:41:26 AM
Would plague monks not make a better "spear head"? If I remember correctly they are T4 and have the options for additional hand weapons, so they are harder to hurt in the first place and have the ability to dish out more damage. They also have frenzy which would make them immune to psychology until they lose around of combat, meaning that they can afford to take a few losses along the way.

The downside to plague monks is the fact that A) they take up a special slot, and B) they cant have a weapon team, but that being said they would still make a better "spear head".

I still think more clanrats would be the way to go, but if you are looking for a little extra punch there are plenty of other options available, hopefully the new army book will make me change my opinion on Stormvermin, by either reducing the points cost, or giving them some tasty new rules.